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    "If I shut up the heavens and there is no rain; if I command the locusts to ravage the land; or if I let loose pestilence against My people, when My people, who bear My name, humble themselves, pray, and seek My favor and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear in My heavenly abode and forgive their sins and heal their land." II Chronicles 7:13-14
    Quest for Ancient of Days
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    Note: Scriptures are blue.
    In the Beginning

    This is a transcription of a UHCforum tape
    between Lawrence C. Williams and Charles J. Voss.


           Hello. My name is Lawrence Williams of United Hebrew Congregations. For an introduction, I will use the one from our web page at uhcg.org: Quest for the ETERNAL CREATOR of the Universe.
           The stars in the sky are proof of an overall power in the universe that somehow put them all in place and controls all that there is. The Designer of the universe must have had an overall plan for all of the inhabitants of the earth. This is a search for that plan. The Quest will first focus on the ancient writings of the Hebrew people that left Egyptian slavery. These writings were chosen as a beginning for our Quest because there is no big religious faction that is based on them alone, without any other mediating documents. It is true that the religion of Judaism claims to be based on these ancient writings, but they have other books that are just as holy to them. In our Quest, we must find one set of writings that stands alone and has a plan for all of humankind. Thus, The Holy Scriptures were chosen as the beginning of our Quest.
          The overall theme for all of our forums is "Quest for the Ancient of Days." Our presentation today is called "In the Beginning - Part I". To present this information today is my friend, Charles Voss.

    CV:    Thank you, Lawrence, and to add to what you said, we must make our Quest for the Ancient of Days while He can still be found. As we look at the overall conditions in the world and all of the problems with the population of the whole word as a group, it appears that we may be headed into the time of trouble when the ETERNAL cannot be found. (Ps. 32:6, Isa. 55:6-7, Amos 8, and Amos 12).
          As we look into the heavens or the skies above with its unending expanse, it is a very beautiful sight. Almost any rational person who even, ever so slightly ponders the complexity of the enormous expanse of the heavens above should be awed at the magnificence of our universe. In addition, as we look at the photographs released by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California by the Hubbell Telescope satellite, we should be almost spellbound.

    LW:    The picture that is most outstanding in my mind is the one of the earthrise, as it was seen and photographed by the astronauts on the moon.

    CV:    Yes that truly is an outstanding photograph. Just for a moment, hold that thought in your mind about the universe, and let us ponder something else. Consider the extremely large variety of life forms upon the earth. If you do, you have to conclude that all of this must have been created by some sort of Intelligence. It could not have just come into existence all by itself. Even if we allow the infinity of times past, it still requires a Central Intelligence to design and produce it.

    LW:    I'm reminded of the statements of many of the astronauts, as they looked out of their cockpit windows, that these wonders must have been designed and created.

    CV:    Yes, and the exactness of the design is so precise - whether you look outward into the solar system or whether you focus inwardly toward the complexity of the material and the molecular structure of the things around about us. If we do, what do we see? We see the same basic design of bits of matter orbiting other bits of matter that we see in the universe above, and it had to have required a great Central Intelligence to design and to produce it.

    LW:    If we were to observe the most beautiful painting on earth, it would appear perfect from a distance. Yet, the closer we examine the painting the more obvious the lack of detail becomes. For example, with the naked eye the cutting edge of a razor blade appears to be straight. However, under a microscope, it resembles a saw-blade.

    CV:    Exactly. If an astronaut out in space was able to focus in on a single snowflake on earth, its design would be flawless. If he had the ability from out in space to zero in closer to the microscopic level of this snowflake, he would see the design of the molecules is the same as the designs of the heavens above him.
          Classical chemistry developed the law of the conservation of mass, which states that in an isolated system the total amount of mass does not change. Classical physics produced the law of the conversation of energy. Relativity theory has revealed that these two laws are actually two aspects of the same law - the conservation of energy-mass or the energy-mass equivalence. In fact, matter and energy can be transformed from one to another, but the total amount of the energy-mass equivalent remains constant. If you are wondering what all of this has to do with the "Quest for the Ancient of Days," just please be patient - we are headed there.

    LW:    In other words, what you are saying is that if I were to strike a match, it would burn and be transformed into smoke and ashes. It would also release heat. However, the total amount of matter and energy would remain the same. Thus, the burning of the match produces ashes, smoke, and heat. But, what do you mean by the energy-mass equivalent?

    CV:    If we could isolate the products of the burning match and then had the ability convert them back into a match, nothing would have been gained or lost. The total energy-mass equivalent of the match would be the same as the total energy-mass equivalent of the ashes, smoke, and heat. In changing them from one form to another would not increase or decrease the total energy-mass equivalent.

    LW:    In other words, the energy-mass equivalent of the match is the same quantity as the energy-mass equivalent ashes, smoke, and heat

    CV:    Exactly. To take that concept to its conclusion the total energy-mass equivalent of the universe will always remain the same. The energy and mass could be converted from one form to other but the total energy-mass equivalent would remain the same. If half of all of the energy in the universe were converted into matter, the total energy-mass equivalent still is the same.

    LW:    I remember that Albert Einstein once said that the design of the laws of nature could not have come into existence by itself. Didn't he work on the conversion of matter into energy?

    CV:    Yes, and he discovered the formula by which matter is converted into energy. His approach to the subject was to determine the amount of the destructive force that could be released when the atoms, of which molecules are made, were destroyed.

    LW:    Then molecules must be the building blocks of nature.

    CV:    Well, more or less. But that statement is exact enough for our discussion today. The conversion formula that Einstein discovered is E=mc2.

    LW:    I remember that. "E" is the amount of energy, "m" is the amount of matter, and "c2" is the speed of light multiplied by itself.

    CV:    Hey, very fine. The formula will also work backwards to indicate the amount of energy required to produce matter.

    LW:    Let me see. That would be m=E/c2. Since the amount of energy required must be divided by the speed of light multiplied by itself, it would seem that a gigantic amount of energy would be required to produce even a pinhead of matter.

    CV:    True, and the amount of energy required to produce the earth would be so large that our most powerful computers could not even begin to come close to that number, much less the energy required to produce the universe itself. Now, let me summarize all of this, where we are up to this point.
    1. A Central Intelligence has designed and created all matter.
    2.  Matter can be created by the transformation of pure energy into matter, but the energy-matter equivalence remains the same.

    LW:    Then once energy is converted into matter, the matter can have different characteristics.

    CV:    True, and the conversion of energy into matter could only be done by some central form of intelligence that has control, or is the source of all the energy in the universe in the energy-matter equivalence. For the sake of simplicity, we will call the Central Intelligence that has control of all energy and matter "CREATOR."

    LW:    Since, as has been pointed out, the total amount of energy or matter cannot be destroyed but only changed from one form to the other, then this amount of energy-matter equivalence must be eternal.

    CV:    Yes, they are eternal, and furthermore, the Central Intelligence, or the CREATOR who controls all energy and matter must be ETERNAL. From the beginning of mankind's observing the starry skies above, whether it was done with the naked eye until the present-day Hubbell Telescope, there is no written record of this energy-matter equivalence being increased or decreased. Neither is there is a record of energy and matter, as a pure source, competing with itself or with any other source of energy matter. Therefore, there is only ONE Central Intelligence in total control of all energy and matter, and that is the CREATOR. For lack of a better term, I will call CREATOR a being, or the Supreme Being, who totally controls all energy and matter in the universe. For lack of a better pronoun, I will use "He" in reference to Him.

    LW:    Then there can only be one Supreme Being who has total control of all energy and matter.

    CV:    Yes. In addition, because the total amount of energy and the total amount of energy are constant and cannot be increased or destroyed, but can be changed from one to the other, they are eternal and are under the control of the Supreme Being, the CREATOR of the Universe.
          René Descartes once said, "I think, therefore I am." For whatever reason you and I are here, we are alive on planet Earth. We live, we breathe, we walk, we eat, and we die. We encounter matter all around us and, in fact, we ourselves are made of matter.

    LW:    Are you indicating that we are matter, and all matter is transformed from pure energy, how can that be?

    CV:    For simplicity and because no man knows how it is performed, I will just call the process that the CREATOR used to transform energy into matter "creating." By some process known only to Him, He compressed or hardened, if you would, energy into matter. Matter, as different chemicals, can take on many forms and shapes. We can mold it, we can build with it, or we can eat it to sustain life.

    LW:    Sort of, like water can be invisible vapor, cold ice, or a wet liquid.

    CV:    Exactly. How would you say that we interact with matter?

    LW:    Through our five senses - we taste it, we touch it, we smell it, we hear it, or we see it. What we see is actually light energy. As human beings, and we can interact with many forms of matter or energy. Are there any forms that we cannot interact with?

    CV:    Yes. We ourselves cannot interact with radar or radio waves, sonar or many other sound waves. Since we cannot detect them, they are undetectable or invisible to us. To simply restate a very complex system into its most basic form, the CREATOR compressed, by whatever process, energy into matter. The matter created appears to be mostly physical matter. Now, I realize that this is a very, very simplistic approach to a highly complex process and I realize I would be laughed out of any class of physics by using it. However, I have intended to break down a great mystery into a very simplistic understanding to explain the point that there must be a Supreme Being that controls all energy and matter. In the entire universe, there cannot be more than one Supreme Being. Our CREATOR is the one single unit, or being, and is not broken down into two or three or more parts.

    LW:    Are there not many books that speak of creation?

    CV:    Yes, there are. However, we will focus in on one book and cover the others later. Only one book makes the claim the CREATOR of the universe inspired it to be written (Deut. 4:2 and Ezekiel 1:1-3). Only one book proclaims that there is only one Supreme Being (Deut. 6:4) and that He alone, created (Gen. 1:1 and Ps. 104:5) and controls (Job 38:3-4) the universe. Only one book sets forth the beginning and the conclusion of all things (Isa. 46:9-10). Only one-book states that the CREATOR created human beings in His image, in the CREATOR'S image (Gen. 1:27) and He did that from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:7). It also states the purpose for that creation (Ps. 8:5-6). That one book is The Holy Scriptures, and it is known as the Hebrew Scriptures or the Old Testament.
          The Holy Scriptures states that the one CREATOR created many animals after their kind. For example, He created cows after the cow-kind, and He created dogs after the dog-kind. Each of these animals He created after their kind and in the image and form of their kind. In other words, cows look like cows, and dogs look like dogs. Interestingly, The Holy Scriptures states that the CREATOR created us in His image and in His form. In other words, we were created after the CREATOR or the Elohim-kind because we are in His image and form.
    Footnote here: ELOHIM is the Hebrew word that is translated "God." That means we are the same shape and form as our CREATOR. It does not mean that we are created of the same material that He is composed of. He created us out of matter, out of the dust of the earth, and we are part of a material universe that is detectable by our five senses.

    LW:    Doesn't it say that He created us from dust, and after death we will return to the dust of the ground but the spirit will return to Him?

    CV:    Yes it does, but the part about the spirit is jumping ahead a bit and we will cover that portion of humans later. However, The Holy Scriptures states that He created other beings that are not detectable by our five senses and are invisible to us. For lack of a better term we will call these beings "angels" (Ps. 104:4). The angels are created a little above human beings at this time (Ps. 8:5). The Holy Scriptures states that the CREATOR built in humankind the ability to determine if our actions are right or wrong, and this means that he gave us free moral agency or a free will to choose. We do not have the authority to declare an action right or wrong but we can choose to do right or wrong.
          The Supreme Being instructed humankind from the beginning in the right way of life. He has told us that He set before us life, and that is right choices; and He set before us death, and that is wrong choices, and He instructed us to choose life--in other words, to make the right choices on how to live (Deut. 30:15-16 and Jer. 21:8). To learn to live by making the right choices is called "Developing Righteous Character".
          Abraham lived by making the right choices, it was accounted to him for righteousness (Gen. 15:6), and he is called the CREATOR'S friend (Isa. 41:8). Our CREATOR wants us to select the right choice that we may live in order that we may be included in His kingdom that He will set up. If our actions prove that we will follow His will, then we are righteous (Gen. 15:6). If righteous we will be selected to be in His kingdom (Dan. 12:2,13), we will live forever (Prov. 12:28, Gen. 4:22, and Dan. 12:2), and then we will be over the angels (Ps. 8:4-6).

    LW:    Does our CREATOR give us a set of guidelines to live by so that we will know what the right choices are?

    CV:    Yes, He does. The Holy Scriptures are divided into three sections: the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The first five books of The Holy Scriptures are called "The Torah" and are filled with instructions on how to live.
           This life is a test to determine if we will follow His path, or rules, or not. In addition to that, He ponders our paths to see what we will do (Prov. 5:21). If we live by His rules until we die, we will be resurrected or raised from the dead, and be included in the resurrection of everlasting life (Dan. 12:2). On the other hand, if we do not follow His way we will be resurrected to the resurrection of shame and contempt (Dan. l 12:2).

    LW:    Then why doesn't humankind just simply live by the rules and thus live a happy fulfilled life?

    CV:    To answer that question, let us back up a little bit to the time of the creation of the angels. Remember they are the non-visible spirit beings that the Supreme Being created. They were also given free moral agency, or the ability to make decisions on their own. The Holy Scriptures state that humankind was created of the dust of the ground and a little lower than the angels. Thus, we are made of visible matter, and we will die (Gen. 2:17). However, angels are made of invisible matter, thus they are eternal (Ps. 104:4).

    LW:    Have all the angels always made the right decisions?

    CV:    No. The chief angel tried at one time to overthrow our CREATOR and become the Supreme Being itself (Isa. 14:13). Of course it failed and was cast back to the earth to live and has now become the adversary of humankind (Isa. 14:16-17).

    LW:    Why would it want to overthrow our CREATOR?

    CV:    Evidently, long ago the angels were also tested as we are being tested now. Some of them must have failed (Job 4:18).

    LW:    How could a spirit being be tested to determine if it would obey or not?

    CV:    Well, let us just see if we can develop such a scenario which would show whether spirit beings would obey the CREATOR or not. First, recall that science tells us that at some point in earth-time dinosaurs roamed the earth. Science also tells us that in the time of the dinosaurs, there were life forms that vaguely resembled humans but they were not humans. An example of these life forms are the Australopithecus, the Neanderthal caveman, and the Cro-Magnon man. For lack of a better term, I will call these prehistoric caveman life forms "hominids." They were primates and not human yet they vaguely resembled humankind.

    LW:    I have wondered about them. Were these prehistoric hominid creatures created or did they evolve, as the evolution theory tells us.

    CV:    Taking a very simplistic approach, remember that matter is compressed or hardened energy by whatever processes the CREATOR used to create matter. Energy cannot compress itself into matter and the one Supreme Being is the only source of all energy, matter, and life. Therefore, He alone created the prehistoric world, and when He did all of the angels shouted with joy (Job 38:7). The earth was first created, and then its prehistoric life forms were created.

    LW:    Why would our CREATOR even want to create a prehistoric set of life forms on planet earth, especially hominid creatures?

    CV:    Remember, we are in the process of trying to establish a scenario for testing the angels. What if--I cannot prove the next statement which is totally my own opinion--but, what if the Supreme Being created the prehistoric life-forms of dinosaurs and such creatures and then He created the hominids into all of this as a test for the angels?

    LW:    How could that possibly be a test for the angels?

    CV:    Remember that science has proved the prehistoric existence of a set of life forms that we can only know about by their remains that have been left. These include the fossils or crude oil that they turned into. Since energy cannot compress itself into matter, the Supreme Being created these prehistoric creatures on earth for some purpose. But, why would He do that? Why would He create a prehistoric situation that would be hostile to humankind but create these hominids into it?

    LW:    Are you saying that our CREATOR actually did create humanoid people?

    CV:    No, I am not saying that He created hominid people. However, science has proved that there were so called "cavemen," that were pre-human being type creatures on the earth yet they were not humans. Thus, I am not saying that the CREATOR created people or human beings in prehistoric times. He created hominids that rather resembled human beings. Does that answer your question?

    LW:    Yes, I believe it does thank you.

    CV:    Okay, let us go on. What if--and this is also just my own opinion, but what if--at the time that the CREATOR created these hominids that He told the chief angel that its job was to protect and to help these hominids? Psalms 91:11 does tell us that the purpose for angels is to help humans. Well, why not have them help hominids? The reason for that assignment would be for them to learn how to protect and to help these hominid creatures.

    LW:    Why would the CREATOR want the angels to learn how to protect these hominid creatures?

    CV:    Because the CREATOR knew that He would create humans later on, after the Elohim-kind, or after His kind, in His shape, form, and image. He must have told that to the chief angel - that later on when He refashioned the earth, that humans would be created in His image and would have dominion over all the earth and everything on it (Psalm 8:4-6). The chief angel's job would be to protect these human beings (Ps. 91:11).

    LW:    Let me guess what happened. Ezekiel 28:12 states that the chief angel was created the sum total of perfection and beauty. Thus, it must have decided at some point to rebel because it did not want these later human beings that would be created in the form of the Elohim-kind to have dominion over the earth as well as the angels that were there.

    CV:    Sounds like you have it summed up perfectly. Let me ask you a question. What would your decision have been to the following scenario? First, you were created the chief angel, the sum total of perfection and beauty. Second, you had even spread your wings over the very throne of the CREATOR (Ezek. 28:14). Then you were told that the reason for your creation was to later help these humans, who would have dominion over the earth and all that was there.

    LW:    Well, I guess that my first thoughts would have been, that having been created the sum total of perfection and beauty that things just never could get any better than that. However, after being told that I would have to be servant to human beings, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have been very jealous and had a hard time of it. However, I just sincerely hope that I would have made the right decision and followed CREATOR'S plan.

    CV:    That's a very good answer, Lawrence, and I feel the same way. I just hope that if I were in that position that I would follow CREATOR's will and do, as He wanted. Whether or not the test that the angels went through was the scenario that we have gone through, I do not know. However, that does explain to me why CREATOR would even bother to have a prehistoric creation. Because science has shown there were creatures here before humankind, prehistoric creatures like dinosaurs and these hominids. But whether that was the test or not; The Holy Scriptures show that there was a test of some sort and that some of the angels failed and even attempted to overthrow the Supreme Being and take control of the universe (Ezek. 28:15, 18). Some angels passed the test and were obedient (Ps. 103:20). I realize this is an outstanding statement to make, so I want to go back over this with the Scriptures. Let us turn, if you would, to Ezekiel 28:1:
    "The word of YHWH came to me again, saying, 'Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre,

          We will see as we go through this that two different types of beings discussed. One is a mortal physical human being and the other is the chief angel, a spirit being.
    Thus says YHWH CREATOR: 'because your heart is lifted up, and you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' yet you are a man, and not a god. Though you set your heart as the heart of a god' (Ezekiel 28:2).
          The word god used here is with a lower case g and the prince is specifically referred to as a man. Remember the Pharaoh in Egypt was thought to be the god of Egypt. Thus, this physical king, puffed up with pride, claimed to be a god.
    Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you! With your wisdom and your understanding you have gained riches for yourself, and gathered gold and silver into your treasuries. By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, and your heart is lifted up because of your riches.' Therefore thus says YHWH CREATOR: 'Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations. And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor. They shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain In the midst of the seas. Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, In the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised, by the hand of aliens. For I have spoken,' says YHWH CREATOR'(Ezekiel 28:3-10).

          Tyre was an island city fortified with high walls and the sea itself. ETERNAL had said (Ezek. 26) that its enemies would destroy the city of Tyre and it happened. In 332, BCE after a seventh month siege Alexander the Great destroyed it by building an earthen bridge to the island. The next section of verses is obviously speaking of a spirit being because it was in Eden and yet, is still alive. This being is addressed as the king of Tyre, whereas the man was the prince of Tyre. This being could not have been Adam because he had long since been dead. Starting in verse 11:
    Moreover the word of YHWH came to me, saying, 'Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says YHWH CREATOR you were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of CREATOR. Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created (Ezekiel 28:11-13).

          A human is born but this being was created. There was a specific day this cherub was created. It had the ability to produce music, by the mention of musical instruments that were prepared in it:
    'You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you. You were on the holy mountain of CREATOR. You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading, you became filled with violence within, and you sinned. Therefore, I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of CREATOR and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones' (Ezekiel 28:14-16).

          This spirit being that rebelled, was the anointed cherub that covered. In other words, it covered the very throne of CREATOR with its wings. Thus this being was the sum total of beauty and perfection, was found with iniquity. Notice that from this point the narrative seems to fade back into the prince of Tyre, the man.
    "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you. You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading. Therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all whom saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you. You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:17-19).

    LW:    I am getting a little bit confused. The prince of Tyre is a human being, a man I assume, Ezekiel is talking to him as a man, and then our CREATOR comes to Ezekiel and tells him to go to the king of Tyre. Evidently, the king of Tyre is a spirit being, which would definitely be s-tan from all accounts. That is a little bit confusing to me. How could the prince be a man and the king is s-an?

    CV:    That's a good question. In addition, to answer the question, let us go back to verse 16 referring to the chief angel:
    'Therefore, I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of CREATOR and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.' (Ezekiel 28:16)

          The English word "destroyed" comes from the Hebrew word "'abad" (aw-bad') and in Strong's it is #H6 and means to wander away, i.e. lose oneself. It does not mean to destroy so that it will be consumed or vanish. It means that it will not be where it was, it has been removed, but it does not mean destroyed. Referring back to verse 18:
    "You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic. Therefore, I will bring forth a fire from the midst of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you" (Ezekiel 28:18).

          The English word "devour" comes from the Hebrew word "'akal" (aw-kal') and in Strong's it is #H398 and means to eat, burn up, consume or literally "to totally destroy". Whereas in verse 16, the spirit being is not destroyed but is removed or driven away. Malachi 4:3 states that the wicked will become ashes under the feet of the righteous. This ties back into verses 18 and 19, speaking again about the prince of Tyre, who is the man, the human being. Turn if you would to Isa. 14:4) speaking of the king of Babylon:
    That you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: 'how the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased! YHWH has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of the rulers. He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He, who ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted and no one hinders. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying, 'Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us' (Isa. 14:4-8).

          When the king of Babylon is destroyed, the whole world will rejoice saying no one is going to come up against us. Symbolically the trees are saying that we can rejoice because no one is going to come cut us down.
    Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; it stirs up the dead for you, all the chief ones of the earth. It has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. They all shall speak and say to you, 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?' (Isa. 14:9-10).

          "Hell" here is the Hebrew word Sheol or the grave. There is no ever-burning hell to torture people forever but we will cover that later. In the following verses, Sheol ties in with the pit. The text will now begin to fade into the spirit being again.
    "Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; the maggot is spread under you, and worms cover you. How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!" (Isa. 14:11-12).

          The word "Lucifer" is a Latin word that means "the bright and morning star." The Hebrew word "heylel" (hay-lale') in Strong's is #H1966 and it means "the bright and morning star." There is also a New Testament reference, but we will cover that later except to note now that the brightest morning star is the sun. Originally, it was to be Heylel's job to bring truth and light from our CREATOR.
    "For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of CREATOR. I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit." (Isa. 14:13-15)

          After that allegory speaking of how Lucifer was the bright and morning star but because of its iniquity it was cast back to the earth. Now we fade back to the king - the physical human king.
    "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?' All the kings of the nations, all of them, sleep in glory, everyone in his own house (Isa. 14:16-17).

    LW:    Since the Supreme Being has total control of all energy and matter, it was a stupid decision on the part of the chief angel to rebel and try to overthrow CREATOR. For it and the angels who followed were cast back to earth and became the adversaries of humankind.

    CV:    Exactly. That is stated in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14, which we have just covered. We will call the chief angel who is our adversary, s-tan . The Hebrew word "s-tan " is the same spelling as the English word "s-tan ." It is pronounced in Hebrew as "saw-tawn'," and it simply means the adversary.

    Some of the angels passed the test and are helpful to humankind. Two examples are the angel that helped Hagar in Genesis 21:17-19 and the one that helped Daniel in Daniel 10:14.
          No angel whether fallen or otherwise can control a human being. They can influence humans into making the wrong choices. For example, Eve was influenced into making the wrong choice in Gen. 3:13, and King David in making the wrong choice in I Chronicles 21:1. However, in the final analysis, we human beings choose right or wrong. Physical life is our test, and CREATOR has placed before us life and death and has instructed us to choose life (Deut. 30:15-18).

    LW:    The scriptures state that the chief fallen angel was the sum of perfection and beauty. What would have been its position if it had passed the test?

    CV:    The original Hebrew name for this fallen chief is "Haylel" but the Latin word "Lucifer" is used. Haylel and Lucifer both mean "the bright and the morning star" and its job would have been to influence human beings into making the right decisions to obey CREATOR. Instead, it has chosen to be the adversary of human kind. When we refer to s-tan we will use the pronoun "it" and will not say "he" or "she." There are indications in the scripture as to the gender of s-tan , but we will cover that later.

    LW:    If Lucifer is a Latin word, why is it used in the English King James Version of The Holy Scriptures?

    CV:    The Supreme Being has allowed our adversary to fool humankind in order to make the test that we must pass more difficult. Our CREATOR wants to see if we will truly Quest and search diligently for Him and for wisdom. As the slogan of the "X-Files" TV program states, "The truth is out there," we just need to find it.
          The Holy Scriptures are absolutely true and total in what is written because our CREATOR inspired them. He will not let them be perverted into total false statements. Yet, He has allowed some small amount of sleight of hand trickery in order to make our search for Him and His wisdom truly a Quest for the unvarnished, plain truth. It is too bad that s-tan failed the test because it could have been of great help to humankind and still be the chief angel who spread its wings over the throne of the Supreme Being.

    LW:    Let me see if I have all of this correct. The Supreme Being controls all energy and matter. He converted or hardened energy into matter that is visible to us because we are created out of matter. Yet, He created angels out of energy into some kind of material that is invisible to us.

    CV:   Yes that is correct.

    LW:    Then CREATOR gave the angels some sort of test, which some failed. They were created to be helpful for humans, but now some of them are our adversaries. In addition, CREATOR has allowed the chief adversary to hide its name and true self from us.

    CV:    Exactly, and in addition, CREATOR has allowed s-tan to hide how the CREATOR's name is pronounced.

    LW:    What is our CREATOR's name?

    CV:    The Hebrew letters of his name are hwhy (Yod He Vav He). The English letters of His name are "YHWH."

    LW:    How could s-tan do this and why would it want to?

    CV:    The Supreme Being has allowed the adversary to have some influence over us by putting thoughts into our minds to do wrong things. Thus, He has allowed s-tan to influence some of the things the scribes and translators wrote in transcribing or translating The Holy Scriptures. One thing that CREATOR allowed was for the adversary to hide its own name--Haylel. Remember the name means "the bright and morning star" (Isa. 14:12 and Rev 22:16). This single act has had tremendous effect on all of the religious activities of human kind from the very beginning, but we will cover that point later.

    Another thing CREATOR has allowed s-tan to do is to also hide the CREATOR's name. Hebrew is the original language of the Hebrew scriptures. It is written using consonants only, without any vowels. Vowel points are used where the vowels should be. For example, your name written without vowels, but using vowel points would be 'L.wr.nc.'. In addition, s-tan has influenced the Jewish scribes to think that it is blasphemy to speak the name of our CREATOR. Therefore, they even left the points out where the vowels should be. The English version of our CREATOR's name is "YHWH", with no indication of how many vowels are needed or where they should be placed. The Jewish scribes, under the influence of s-tan, have done a perfect job in hiding the correct pronunciation of our CREATOR's name. The English word 'Lord' is used instead of "YHWH".
          Since the actual sound of the CREATOR's name has been lost, I will use the meaning of the name "the existing one who was and is" or simply, "ETERNAL." Dr. James Moffatt uses this name in his translation of The Holy Scriptures. The Hebrew word ELOHIM is translated as 'God.' But the actual meaning of the word is "the Almighty CREATOR" or just "CREATOR." I will use the word CREATOR, Deity, or The Mighty One. The derivation of the words "Lord" and "God" are covered in our article "Who is 'God'? or "'God' Is..."

    LW:    What happened when s-tan tried to take control of the universe and tried to replace CREATOR?

    CV:    We cannot say for sure, but the universe gives many clues as to what happened. Since there can only be one Supreme Being who controls all energy and matter, s-tan was doomed from the start and was cast back to the earth (Isa. 14:9-12, Ezek. l 28:17).
          The second verse in first chapter ofThe Holy Scriptures states:
    And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (Gen. 1:2).

          The English word "void" comes from the Hebrew word "bohuw" (bo-hoo) #H922 in Strong's and means an undistinguishable ruin. The two English words "without form" come from the Hebrew word "tohuw" (to'-hoo) #H8414 in Strong's and means to lie waste, a desolation of surface. Isaiah 45:18 tells us the earth was not created "without form" and again: the only one
    For thus says YHWH, Who created the heavens, Who is CREATOR, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain (tohuw), Who formed it to be inhabited. 'I am YHWH, and there is no other' (Isa. 45:18).

          Psalms 104:30 tells us that ETERNAL sent forth His Spirit and renewed the face of the earth. It was not created in tohuw, bohuw, an undistinguishable ruin, and without form but it had become that way. Since it had become an undistinguishable ruin between the prehistoric creation and our present creation, something gigantic must have happened.

    LW:    Then evidently there was a struggle for control when s-tan rebelled, and the resulting war destroyed the earth in sort of a pre-historic "Star Wars."

    CV:    Again, we cannot know this for sure because we were not there. However, there are clues that indicate that there was a struggle of mighty proportions that had taken place before the time of Gen. 1:1, when CREATOR refashioned and reformed the shape of the earth.

    LW:    What are some of these clues?

    CV:    If you look at the surface pictures of the moon or Mars, for example, you see their surfaces are full of potholes and scattered debris. The only thing that could have caused these craters and strewn boulders would be to have been struck with meteors of various sizes, which could have been the result of a gigantic prehistoric struggle.

    LW:    Yes, I have seen some of the pictures that NASA has sent back from the surface of both the moon and Mars. The surfaces are filled with craters, and there are many sizes of rocks scattered all around. In fact, there are many large craters on earth, such as Crater Lake. What could have caused these things?

    CV:    Well, let me say again that no one can say for sure, but there had to have been a source for the materials that pock-marked the surfaces of the moon, earth, and Mars. I have read scientific speculation that there was originally another planet in our solar system. If that is true and it was destroyed in a prehistoric struggle for power when s-tan tried to overthrow the one Supreme Being, that would account for a lot of things in our solar system.

    LW:    What are some of the other things?

    CV:    Something was destroyed, whether it was another planet or not, who is to say. However, whatever it was left a trail of destruction. This would account for all of the craters on the surfaces of the Earth, the moon, and Mars. It would also account for the strewn rocks and boulders on the moon and Mars. In addition, the asteroid belt around the sun seems to be the remains of something; also, the rings of Saturn, as the gravity of that planet pulled some of the debris toward itself. It could also account for some of the moons around Jupiter and the comets that circle the sun. It would certainly account for the sudden destruction of the prehistoric creatures of dinosaurs and hominids.

    LW:    That could also account for the fact that the book of Genesis begins with the earth in utter confusion and disarray and covered with water. Nevertheless, where would the water come from?

    CV:    That is hinted at in the Scriptures, but we will cover that at another time. We will continue with the earth being refashioned by our CREATOR and the creation of the life forms that we know of today. The Holy Scriptures states that humankind began with the creation of Adam and Eve and that s-tan, the adversary, influenced them into disobedience. S-tan has been influencing humans ever since into making the wrong decisions. Humans became so corrupt with evil and sin that the CREATOR had to destroy them with water--an earth-covering flood called "The Deluge".

    LW:    Was s-tan able to influence all of humankind?

    CV:    No. There were a few that walked and talked with the ETERNAL and obeyed His ways.

    LW:    I thought you said spirit-beings were invisible, so how could He walk and talk with human kind?

    CV:    Spirit-beings are invisible. However, by whatever process, they can manifest themselves so that we can see them. Somehow, they can change themselves into matter so that we can react with them with our five senses. For example, Abraham, when he saw the CREATOR and two angels (Gen. 18:1-2) and Jacob when he wrestled with CREATOR all night (Gen. 32:1-2; 32:24-29).

    LW:    Who are some others who walked and talked with the ETERNAL our CREATOR and followed His ways?

    CV:    Before the flood, there was Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and his son was Methuselah, whose son was Lamech, whose son as Noah. Noah found grace in the sight of the ETERNAL (Gen. 6:8). Since Enoch and his great-grandson Noah followed the one ETERNAL CREATOR, then Enoch must have been the patriarch of a family line of people who followed our CREATOR's ways. The civil statutes of the city or cities that this clan lived in would have been based on the ways of life CREATOR told their patriarch. Thus, if any cuneiform tablets of civil laws were found that predated the deluge, their contents would naturally follow the instructions of the way of life the ETERNAL later gave Enoch and then later to Moses. Whatever CREATOR told Enoch was the exact same thing that He later told Moses, because He is ETERNAL and cannot change.

    LW:    So even though CREATOR had not yet given His laws and statutes to Moses, that does not mean that the civil codes of earlier cities would not have been based on CREATOR's word. The ETERNAL explained His ways to Enoch, who explained them to his clan. Therefore, the civil statutes found on cuneiform tablets in the remains of earlier cities would naturally have been based on the Ten Commandments.

    CV:    Bingo! You have it.

    LW:    That explains the why the civil codes on any cuneiform tablets found in the ruins of cities from before the deluge that were based on the Ten Commandments, but what about any cities after the flood?

    CV:    Coming through the deluge were Noah and his son, Shem. They would be the patriarchs of the first cities after the flood. Noah, Shem, and their clan would have written the civil structure of these cities. These civil structures would have been based on what Noah and Shem learned from Enoch's clan and would be reinforced with words from the CREATOR as He spoke with Noah (Gen. 7:1; 8:15).

    LW:    Was Shem also close to our ETERNAL CREATOR?

    CV:    Yes, he was Genesis 9:26 states:
    "Blessed be the 'Lord, God' of Shem."
          Or better stated it would be, "Blessed be ETERNAL, the Deity of Shem." Nowhere does Scriptures state that ETERNAL was the Deity of Noah's other sons, Ham and Japheth.

    LW:    Okay. You seem to make a distinction and set apart Noah and Shem as a clan distinct and separate from Ham, Japheth, and their clans.

    CV:    That distinction is made by The Holy Scriptures and not by me. I am only stating what is written. Noah is described as being perfect in his generations (Gen. 6:9). The English word "perfect" comes from the Hebrew word "tamiym" (taw-meem) which is #H8549 in Strong's and means "entire, integrity, and without blemish." The English word "generations" comes from the Hebrew word "towledah" (to-led-aw') which is #H8435 in Strong's and it means "descent or family history." In other words, Noah had a pure, single bloodline, which can easily be traced back to Adam's third son, Seth (Gen. 5:4-32).
          Obviously, Ham and Japheth had interracial marriages before the flood because the first time the word "gentile" is used in The Holy Scriptures it is referring to the descendants of Ham and Japheth (Gen. 10:5). Let us look at that verse in Scripture (but you need to check the context):
    "From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations" (Gen. 10:5).

    LW:    If the descendants of Ham and Japheth are called "Gentiles", what about the descendants of Shem? What are they called?

    CV:   Let us look at Genesis:
    "Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born. The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram, And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. And Arphaxad begot Salah; and Salah begot Eber" (Gen. 10:21-24).

          The word Eber is interesting and we will use its meaning later in referring to Abraham. It is the same as the Hebrew word "Eber" (ay'-ber) and in Strong's is # H5676 and means a region across; on the opposite side (especially of the Jordan; usually mean. the east). However, to answer the question, Shem's descendants are called Semites.
          From American Heritage Electronic Dictionary, Houghton Mifflin Co. 1992,
    Semite 1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
    2. Bible. A descendant of Shem.
    3. A Jew. [This is what it Semite means today but we want the Scriptural definition.]

          The Compton's Reference Collection 1996 Compton's NewMedia, Inc. adds Assyrians to the list of Semites. As time passed the Semites became a large river of many clans speaking many languages and following different religions but the original clan lived in Mesha (Gen. 10:30) and Ur of Chaldeans (Gen. 11:28). Notice that Shem and Noah's descendants formed these cities.
    And their dwelling place was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east. These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their languages, in their lands, according to their nations. These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these, the nations were divided on the earth after the flood. Now the whole earth had one language and one speech (Gen. 10:30-11:1).

    "And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans" (Gen. 10:30-11:1).

    LW:    From Noah descended the two general classifications of people. If they were descendants of Shem, they were Semites and if they were descendants of Ham and Japheth, they were Gentiles. In addition, everyone from Adam until the tower Babel all spoke the same language.

    CV:    Yes that is what The Holy Scriptures state.

    LW:    Where does Abraham fit into this river of Semites who descended from Shem?

    CV:    Picking up where we left off at Eber:
    Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg.... [who]... begot Reu.... [who]... begot Serug.... [who] begot Nahor.... [who] begot Terah.... [who] begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran. [who] begot Lot. And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans. ...
          Then Abram and Nahor took wives ... the name of Abram's wife was Sarai, ... But Sarai was barren; she had no child. And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, ... and his daughter-in-law Sarai ... and they went out ... from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there." (Gen. 11:16-31)

          It is interesting to note here that Terah had set out for Canaan. Since Shem later ended up being the Priest of the Almighty in Salem (Gen. 14:18 and ref. our article Proof of the Messiah), which later became Jerusalem; Shem and his clan must have been informed by CREATOR that He would set up a sub-group of Semites in Canaan. The first time the word Hebrew is used is in Genesis 14:
    And there came one that had escaped [as Lot was taken captive], and told Abram the Hebrew; who dwelt in the plains of Mamre." (Gen. 14:13)

          The English word "Hebrew" comes from the Hebrew word "'Ibriy" (ib-ree') #H5680 in Strong's and means a descent of Eber or an Eberite. Remember the word Eber means a region across or the other side.

          Quoting from the Stone Edition: The ArtScroll Series, Published by Mesorah Publications Published in 1996, Page 28, Note for Gen. 14:13:

    "Abraham was called the Ivri from the word, the other side. Literally, this means that he came from the other side of the Euphrates. Figuratively, he was on the other side of a moral and spiritual divide from the rest of the world. Alternatively, the name means that he was a descendant of Eber. Only Abraham's descendants are called "Ivrim" for they alone spoke Hebrew, Eber's language.
          Now keep that point in mind. But before we go any further we in United Hebrew Congregations--are just like Abraham. We are on the other side of a moral and spiritual divide from the rest of the world. We are not Christian, Jewish, or Islamic--we are Hebrews. We are Questing for the religion of the Holy Scriptures which I believe is the single religion the clan of the patriarchs, the Abrahamic Hebrew faith. This religion has our ETERNAL CREATOR as the ONE being, the Supreme Being who created the heavens and the earth.
          The reason other religious groups are different from us, is because they all have other books that they claim to be holy books that to them, supersedes the Old Testament--the Hebrew Scriptures, or the Holy Scriptures, as I prefer to say. The Jews have two books the "Torah" and the "Midrash." The Muslims have a book called the "Koran." The Christians have a book called the "New Testament." The Mormons have a book called the "Book of Mormon." All of these books supposedly supersede, override, and bear more reverence than The Holy Scriptures. So we are--just like Abraham--we are on the other side of a moral and spiritual divide from the rest of the world.

    LW:    Since Eber was of Shem's clan and spoke Hebrew, then Shem must have spoken Hebrew because all the world spoke the same language after the Deluge until the tower of Babel.

    CV:    That is true. I am just beginning the study of Hebrew. I cannot speak it yet, but I can recognize some of the letters and there is something that is a question in my mind. Looking at the Hebrew in The Jerusalem Bible, by Corinth Publishers in Jerusalem, 1997. The first three words translated into English are "Beginning created ELOHIM," then separated by a space come two Hebrew letters aleph and tau and they are not translated. Then the next translated words are "the heavens," then after a space are three Hebrew letters vav, aleph, and tau which are not translated. Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon states that: "vav is copulative (kop'-ya-lative) (adj. coupled or joined) and serves in connecting both words. I would guess that the origional creation of the Hebrew alphabet is being emphasized. Then the next translated words are 'the earth.'"

          I checked with someone who speaks Hebrew and when I pointed this out to him, he was as amazed as I was. He had not realized Genesis 1:1 was written that way either. He told me that aleph and tau usually refers to the Hebrew alphabet. So putting that all together in a new sentence:
    "In the beginning created ELOHIM the Hebrew alphabet, the heavens, the Hebrew alphabet (emphasized), and the earth."

          I am not a Hebrew scholar, but it seems to me, this Scripture is stating that, in the beginning ELOHIM created the Hebrew language, a physical language, then spoke it and created the heavens and the earth. I realize that saying that, I am going out on a limb. However, those letters are there and they are not translated in all of the fifteen, or so, translations that I have. In thinking about it, s-tan would not want the world to know that Hebrew was the origional language.
          My Hebrew friend also said, "The English word 'heavens' actually should be translated 'waters,' but we will cover that later. Another point that I want to bring out is from the Encyclopedia Britannica, the Eleventh Edition, 1911, p 168. In article of the Hebrew language:

    "The Aramaic hand in use in Babylon was adopted by the Jews about the fifth century 'BC.' Another form of the same hand allowing the differences of material is found in the Egyptian Aramaic papyri of the fifth and fourth centuries 'BC.' From these were developed the square character used in the missals of the Bible."

          The square characters are used today in the Hebrew Scriptures. The square modern Hebrew letters for "YHWH" are YHWH (Yod He Vav He).

    LW:    What did the Hebrew writings before the fifth century look like?

    CV:   In Gesenius' comparative table of ancient alphabets, the ancient Hebrew characters look exactly like the cuneiform script of the ancient Phoenician, Samaritans, and Greeks.

    LW:    What is a cuneiform script?

    CV:    American Heritage Electronic Dictionary states:

    Cuneiform - 1. Wedge-shaped.
    2. Writing typified by the use a character of characters formed by the arrangement of small wedge-shaped elements and used in ancient Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian writing.
          The Hebrew language is one of the Semitic languages of the Middle East. In the ancient Hebrew script the letters for "YHWH" are YHWH (Yod He Vav He) and it was originally used to record the Hebrew Scriptures. The table in Gesenius' shows that the ancient Hebrews also used a cuneiform writing script.

    LW:    Then the scholars are wrong in saying that the ancient Hebrews could not write and that the Holy Scriptures are copied from ancient Gentile writings.

    CV:    Yes that appears to be true, because Enoch's clan before the Deluge, and Shem's after it, were the people who started the first cities. Babylon was not the first city and we will cover Babylon on Part II of this series. Remember the American Heritage Electronic Dictionary stated that the ancient Sumerians also used cuneiform script.

    LW:    Who were the Sumerians?

    CV:    American Heritage states:

    Sumerian 1. Of or relating to ancient Sumer or its people, language, or culture. 2. A member of an ancient people, probably of non-Semitic origin, who established a nation of city-states in Sumer in the fourth millennium BC [BCE] that is one of the earliest known historic civilizations.
    American Heritage's usage of the word "probably" means they do not know or will not reveal if the Sumerians were Semitic or Gentile. However, Zecharia Sitchin states Sumer was "the first great civilization known to man" he states in The 12th Planet, Avon Books, p27. On p22 he states, "the early name for southern Mesopotamia, just as the Book of Genesis had clearly stated [Gen. 10:10]: 'The royal cities of Babylon, Akkad, and Erech were in 'the land of Shin'ar.' (Shinar is the Biblical name for Sumer.)" With the exception that, "in 1869 Jules Oppert mispronounced the name to the French Society of Archaeology, it should have been 'Shumer' and not Sumer."

          Babel was built in the ancient land of Shinar, so the Scriptural word Shinar has come to be associated with Babylon. The early Sumerians (p23) "stylized wedge writing on soft clay tablets to become the cuneiform writing that was [later] adopted by the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, and other nations of the ancient Near East."

          Sitchin then discusses medical practice and states, (p33) "A Sumerian tablet excavated in Ur, nearly 5,000 years old, names a medical practitioner as the doctor." The point being, that Stitchen indicates that the Sumerians lived in Ur and we already saw that the forefathers of Abraham lived in Ur. Therefore, I suggest to you that the cuneiform writings of Ur prove that the ancient Sumarians are the clan of Shem and thus the forefathers of Abraham and the Hebrews. Since all languages were the same, until the tower of Babel, which was established after the Shemites, established Ur, and of Eber's descendants only the Hebrews (after Babel) had Eber's Hebrew language; therefore, the ancient Hebrew cuneiform must have been the original language.

    In summary, we have seen that:
    1. There is a single Supreme Being and He is not made of two or more beings.
    2. This one Supreme Being created the earth, universe and all that is in them.
    3. The CREATOR created a chief angel with the sum total of perfection and beauty.
    4. Human kind was created just a little lower than the angels were.
    5. This chief angel rebelled and became our adversary, s-tan.
    6. This angel's name was "heylel" "the bright and morning star" who was help and teach human kind.
    7. The word Lucifer, a Latin word, was used to hide the adversary's original purpose.
    8. The clans of Enoch and Shem followed the way of the ETERNAL and they built the first cities.
    9. The Sumerians were the first to use the cuneiform alphabet on clay tablets.
    10. Since the ancient Hebrew script is cuneiform, it could have been the original language.
    11. The Sumerians began the city of Ur from which the ancestry of Abraham began.
    12.The descendants of Shem are Semites and the descendants of Ham and Japheth are Gentiles.

    LW:    Thank you Charles and we will be with you all again on the UHC forum, "In the Beginning - Part II."


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